Topic: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Just purchased SimpleViewer-Pro v2.

The images displayed by Flash through Simple Viewer have a dreadful colour cast.
Unfortunately for my customers (I run a photography website) and my sales this will be a total disaster.

Using a non flash based viewer without SV pro the images are perfect.
Posting the images in my own html or php code without SV pro - the images are perfect.

Changing the image profile does not help.
Changing browsers does not make any difference.

I can kind of correct the colour cast of the images in photoshop, by over-exaggerating a correction, but this is a step that should not be needed.  It would also be very time consuming if I need to post hundreds of images.

Have I again wasted money on purchasing a web tool or can you help?

Last edited by Philip Redman (2009-12-11 03:46:45)

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Hi,

please check here: http://www.simpleviewer.net/simpleviewe … #trouble_7

Felix Turner
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

I am using the Photoshop script, is the conversion to 'sRGB' color profile part of this script?
If not is it hard to make it part of the script?

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

The Photoshop scripts do convert the images to sRGB

Mike Richards
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

miker wrote:

The Photoshop scripts do convert the images to sRGB

thx

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Thank you for the prompt reply.

I have done exactly as your solution requires.
The images still have poor colour cast or colour reduction.

Removing, adding, profiles does nothing to the final presentation through Simple Viewer.
When previewed through any image viewer they are perfect.  When viewed through Simple Viewer they are rubbish.

I am not at all happy and need an urgent solution.

Regards

Philip

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Can you try the color_corrected SWF and see if that helps?

"SimpleViewer-Pro includes a version of the SWF that supports ICC color profiles (Flash player 10 required). Check the examples\color_corrected folder."

Felix Turner
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Thank you I will look at that - the problem is that that may only work if viewers are only using Flash 10.

You can view one of my sites - www.photographersgallery.com.au to see the results.  Make sure you enter (.com.au) as .com is a different site.

At the bottom of the home page there are two links.

The first links to a gallery page containing different code and showing the test images as they should be.

The second links to a gallery page containing the Simple Viewer code showing the test images looking very different.

Regards

Philip

Last edited by Philip Redman (2009-12-12 04:12:52)

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Hi,

Adobe only introduced ICC color profile support in Flash Player 10. So there are 2 options:

1) Save your images as without a color profile as described in the FAQ

2) Use the Flash 10 color corrected SWF. If visitors to your site don't have Flash Player 10 they will be prompted to upgrade. FYI, according to Adobe over 90% of machines have Flash Player 10 installed.

Felix Turner
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

You are forgeting option 1 does not work.

Lets get it perfectly clear - I tried your option several times always with the same poor result.

And as for option 2 - if it works?  According to Adobe 90% of machines have Flash 10?

Unfortunately the rest of the "machines" belong to my customers.

Regards

Philip

Last edited by Philip Redman (2009-12-12 05:29:33)

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Hi,

option 1 does work. Want proof?

1) Take a screen grab of SimpleViewer here: http://www.simpleviewer.net/simpleviewe … es/modern/
2) Right click the image and select 'Open in New Window' to see the original JPG. Screen grab that.
3) Compare the 2 screen grabs in photoshop and see the color values are identical.

As to your test, I think you lost some color saturation when you converted to sRGB. These 2 JPGs are not identical:

http://www.photographersgallery.com.au/ … _3751a.jpg
http://www.photographersgallery.com.au/ … _3751a.jpg

Felix Turner
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

In answer to your reply - "As to your test"

You are 100% correct.

They were not the same images because I made some small corrections to adjust for some of the damaging effects of the images viewed through Simple Viewer.

However I have just copied  the identical files into both image viewer folders on the Web Server.

As you can see, they are far worse in Simple Viewer.

As to your 1.2.3. I will get back to you.

Regards

Philip

Last edited by Philip Redman (2009-12-12 06:29:31)

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Have you checked the site with both sets of identical images?

Also, I have examined both screen-grabs as you suggested and yes their colour values are nearly identical (the very slight difference would only be either a jpg artifact variation or a cropping variation.  But that still doesn't help me.

And it still does not offer "proof".

Can I send you a couple of the images for you to check yourself.

You have my email address so you could send me an email address of your own that accepts attachments?

Regards

Philip

Last edited by Philip Redman (2009-12-12 08:39:31)

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Hi,

I really don't want to argue over what works and what doesn't. I'm not trying to trick you, I'm trying to help you.

The images in your test have a color profile attached and hence show differently in Flash versus the browser. Did you save them as described in the FAQ, by unchecking the 'Embed Color Profile' box?

To make the image look the same in Flash and Safari save your images using the 'sRGB' color profile. In PhotoShop, use 'Save for Web'. Uncheck 'Embed Color Profile' and check 'Convert to sRGB'.

Felix Turner
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

You can also change the swfobject.embedSWF line to force the minimum version of flash to version 10.

From

swfobject.embedSWF("simpleviewer.swf", "flashContent", "100%", "100%", "9.0.124", false, flashvars, params);

to

swfobject.embedSWF("simpleviewer.swf", "flashContent", "100%", "100%", "10.0.0", false, flashvars, params);

Mike Richards
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Miker

I take it you mean change the following line:

var fo = new SWFObject("simpleviewer.swf", "viewer", "100%", "100%px", "9", "#000000");

to

swfobject.embedSWF("simpleviewer.swf", "flashContent", "100%", "100%", "10.0.0", false, flashvars, params);

If so it forces update to Flash 10 alright but I already have flash 10 installed which it refused to recognise.

So I re-installed Flash 10 but still it hangs on the Flash 10 update warning.


Thanks anyway

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Felix

I'm not trying to argue - I am trying to fix a problem.


These are my Photoshop CS4 Save to Web settings from top to bottom:

JPEG
Maximum                            Quality:  100
Check          Progressive         Blur:  0
Uncheck      Optimize           Matte:  Blank
Uncheck      Embed Color Profile

Check         Convert to sRGB
Preview:     Use Document Profile
Metadata:    Copyright

Image Size
800
531

I just re-saved all seven test images and uploaded to the server but still the same problem.

The only thing I can think of is that because the original images have a very specific tonal range anyway this may be causing an issue with Flash.  (doubtful but?)

I am going to go back to the drawing board and re-manage the original raw images.  This time I will not use lightroom to adjust the colour just photoshop.  If that doesn't work I'll use an older version of photoshop. 

Regards

Philip

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Ahh you are using the old version of SWFObject.

so change the 9 to 10 in

var fo = new SWFObject("simpleviewer.swf", "viewer", "100%", "100%", "9", "#000000");


var fo = new SWFObject("simpleviewer.swf", "viewer", "100%", "100%", "10", "#000000");

Mike Richards
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Thanks Mike


Regards

Philip

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

I re-installed Flash 10 but still it hangs on the Flash 10 update warning.

The index.html file in the 'examples/color_corrected' folder has the correct SWFObject code to require Flash 10.

I just re-saved all seven test images and uploaded to the server but still the same problem.

Ok this is strange. Your 'Save to Web' settings look good. The only difference I have is 'Preview' is set to 'Monitor Color'.

The way to check if your image has a color profile attached is to open it in Photoshop, then click the little right arrow icon at bottom left of the image. Select 'Show -> Document Profile'. An image without a color profile will read 'Untagged RGB'.

I downloaded one of your latest images and saved it using the FAQ settings. The file looks the same in the browser and in SimpleViewer. You can download and test the file here: http://www.simpleviewer.net/simpleviewe … rofile.jpg

Also for good measure I tested your original image (with the sRGB color profile) with the color corrected SWF and it looks identical in the browser and in SimpleViewer.

Felix Turner
SimpleViewer Support Team.

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

Felix

I have started a test for images through SimpleViewer.

Not complete.

Will need time to complete.

Will keep you posted

See        www.photographersgallery.com.au/air02/index.html

Regards
Philip
tongue

Last edited by Philip Redman (2009-12-19 01:06:52)

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

As promised here are the results of my test for displaying images using SimpleViewer.

The full test can be viewed on          www.photographersgallery.com.au/air02/index.html



PART ONE - HTML:
To show the visual effect on tonal range, colour and density of assigning various colour profiles to an image displayed on a web page using HTML code.

    A special acknowledgement for use of calibration images to: Getty Images, Stock Solution, Photodisc, Dry Creek Photo, inkjetart.com, crystalfocus.com.au.

    1-A.       An initial image was compiled in Photoshop CS4 with sRGB colour profile printer calibration images from Getty Images, Stock Solution, Photodisc, Dry Creek Photo, Inkjetart.com and a few select images from crystalfocus.com.au, as an uncompressed 300dpi TIF file with an sRGB colour profile.

    1-B.       The image was saved as three additional images with separate assigned colour Profiles for each image.

The 4 file names were: 1-sRGB.tif (sRGB profile); 2-noProfile.tif (not colour managed); 3-AdobeRGB.tif (AdobeRGB (1998) profile); 4-proPhotoRGB.tif (proPhotoRGB profile).

    1-C.       These four profiles were chosen because they are the most common used.  The 4 original Tif files were resized to create 4 additional 800x582 pixel images and saved as JPEGs in Photoshop CS4.

    1-D.       These four JPEG images were then coded using HTML to display in a web page.

        1-E.       Histograms of each of the four images were grabbed from Photoshop and placed alongside their corresponding image in the web page.

Results:
The images appear with the following basic characteristics:
Image 1 (sRGB) and image 2 (no profile) appear the same retaining their original tonal range, colour, hue and saturation.
Image 3 (Adobe RGB) appears more saturated – the shadow and highlight details have been stretched over a wider colour range.
Image 4 (proPhotoRGB) appears more saturated saturated – the shadow and highlight details have been stretched over a wider colour range which has extended highlights and shadows a little too much giving washed out shadow and highlight detail and a magenta colour cast.

All 4 images appear very similar when loaded onto a web page as they would when opened up in Photoshop.

Conclusion:
Regardless of the colour profile of images they will retain an appearance similar to their original one when displayed on a web page using HTML code.  The web browser (in this case viewed in Firefox and Internet Explorer) does not noticeably change the appearance of the images.

PART TWO – Simple Viewer / Flash:
To show the effect on tonal range, colour and density of an image when saved through the "Photoshop CS4 Save for Web" feature and displayed on a web page using Adobe Flash in Airtight Simple Viewer

    2-A.       The 4 original Tif files used in Part One were:
1. - sRGB.tif (sRGB profile);
2. - noProfile.tif (not colour managed);
3. - AdobeRGB.tif (AdobeRGB (1998) profile);
4. - proPhotoRGB.tif (proPhotoRGB profile)

These 4 images were again used to create 8 additional 800x582 pixel images using the “Photoshop CS4 Save for Web” feature with the following two different settings:
a.      JPEG, Very High, Quality 90, Progressive checked, Optimize NOT checked, Embed Color Profile NOT checked, Convert to sRGB NOT checked, Preview-Use Document Profile, w:800 H:582, Percent: 100%. Quality Bicubic
b.      JPEG, Very High, Quality 90, Progressive checked, Optimize NOT checked, Embed Color Profile checked, Convert to sRGB checked, Preview-Use Document Profile, w:800 H:582, Percent: 100%. Quality Bicubic

    2-B.       All 12 JPEG images were then coded using Adobe Flash in Airtight Simple Viewer to display in a web page. 

Results:
The 12 images produced are as follows:
1.  sRGB profile image.
2.  sRGB profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB NOT checked
3.  sRGB profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB checked

4.  Nil profile image
5.  Nil profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB NOT checked
6.  Nil profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB checked

7.  AdobeRGB (1998) profile image.
8.  AdobeRGB profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB NOT checked
9.  AdobeRGB (1998) profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB checked

10.  proPhotoRGB profile image.
11.  proPhotoRGB profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB NOT checked
12.  proPhotoRGB profile image with embedded color profile and convert to sRGB checked

When the images are viewed on the web page using the simpleviewer coding:
•    Image 1 to 8 appear neutral with no colour cast – the colour and tonal ranges appear slightly reduced when compared with the original images
•    Image 9 appears more saturated than images 1 to 8 – the shadow and highlight details appear to have been stretched over a wider colour range
•    Images 10 and 11 appear darker than images 1 to 8, they also appear reasonably neutral with no colour cast but do not appear to have increased saturation
•    Image 12 appears more saturated than all the previous images – the shadow and highlight details have been stretched over a wider colour range which has extended highlights and shadows, perhaps a little too much, giving washed out shadow and highlight detail and a magenta colour cast.

When viewed in Photoshop or when the images are opened in a separate web page and viewed directly the images appear very differently:

•    Image 1 to 6 appear neutral with no colour cast – the colours and tonal ranges appear unchanged
•    Image 7 appears more saturated than images 1 to 6 – the shadow and highlight details appear to have been stretched over a wider colour range
•    Image 8 appears neutral with no colour cast – the colours and tonal ranges appear unchanged
•    Image 9 appears more saturated than images 1 to 6 – the shadow and highlight details appear to have been stretched over a wider colour range
•    Image 10 appears more saturated than all the previous images – the shadow and highlight details have been stretched over a wider colour range which has extended highlights and shadows a little too much giving washed out shadow and highlight detail and a magenta colour cast.
•    Image 11 appears darker than images 1 to 6, are neutral with no colour cast but do not appear to have increased saturation
•    Image 12 appears more saturated than all the previous images – the shadow and highlight details have been stretched over a wider colour range which has extended highlights and shadows, perhaps a little too much, giving washed out shadow and highlight detail and a magenta colour cast.

Conclusion:
Images 1 to 6 were either originally sRGB or non colour managed images or were converted from these images.  They appear similar when viewed in either Photoshop or a browser.  When viewed on a web page using Flash (used by simpleviewer) there is a definite difference in colour and tonal range for all images.  For the image tested here this was acceptable.

The conclusion here is that if your original image has an sRGB colour profile or is not colour managed and has a good overall colour, tone and density range it should display on a web page with a similar appearance to it’s original.  When displayed using HTML code it’s appearance will be closer to the original than when displayed using Flash (such as with simpleviewer).

When the original image with an sRGB colour profile or no colour profile is converted using the “Photoshop Save For Web” function and saved either with an sRGB Profile or without any profile they appear unchanged.  These facts were pointed out by Felix – Site Admin, www.simpleviewer.net.

However, if your original image has an AdobeRGB (1998) or a proPhotoRGB colour profile when displayed using HTML it’s appearance will be closer to the original than when displayed using Flash (such as with simpleviewer).  This also remains true if the “Photoshop Save For Web” function is used to convert such images to have an sRGB colour profile or no colour profile.  This was the point of my original discussion with Felix – Site Admin, www.simpleviewer.net.

Interestingly the AdobeRGB (1998) and the proPhotoRGB images display better through Simpleviewer with their original profile and with no profile than when converted to sRGB using “Photoshop Save For Web”.  These images also differed dramatically when viewed in the Flash coded page than when the image was opened in it’s own page (which accesses the original image direct from the web server).  How confusing for a customer would that be if they were to see two very different images.

Flash 10 is only marginally better at handling colour profiles.

Finally:
To use Adobe Flash (in this case using Simpleviewer) to display images in your webpages they must originally have either no colour managed profile or have an sRGB colour profile.  If images with other colour profiles are converted using the “Photoshop Save For Web” function they may appear dramatically different.

The images that originally brought this problem to my attention had a proPhotoRGB colour profile but were converted for use on a web page using the “Photoshop Save For Web” function.  They also did not have an even colour, density and tonal range and consequently the problem was more evident.

*** This simple experiment clearly shows that to display images in a webpage using Flash (such as is the case with Simpleviewer) the image must originally have either an sRGB colour profile or a non colour managed profile.  If the images have an AdobeRGB (1998) colour profile or a proPhotoRGB colour profile and are converted for use using the “Photoshop Save For Web” function it will have a different appearance to the original images when viewed on the webpage and to the images when viewed directly from the web server.  ***

My image management system uses the following colour profiles.
Printing - AdobeRGB (1998).
Web pages - sRGB.
To change image colour profiles I use either Adobe Lightroom to export an image to a new image where it is saved with a different profile
Or
I use “Photoshop Convert To profile” function and then save it as a new image.

Note:  This exercise was designed to be a simple examination with an uncomplicated synopsis.  It does not and was never meant to cover all aspects of the effects of varying colour profile of images in web pages.

Special thanks to Felix - Site Admin, www.simpleviewer.net for his assistance.


Philip Redman
crystalfocus.com.au

Last edited by Philip Redman (2010-01-22 14:20:57)

Re: Colour (Color) Cast on all images

I think that's not a real color management controls simpleview
http://www.nimmervoll.org/test/index.html
srgb and AdobeRGB look alike

Just as with your example in Figure 1 and 7